Bilag A: Interview med Martin Tønner, 11.04.2012, via Skype

Bilag A: Interview med Martin Tønner, 11.04.2012, via Skype
K: Som Julie måske har skrevet, så er vi gang med at skrive et projekt om krisen i Spanien og om
oprøret - ungdomsbevægelserne der, indignados, 15M. Og vores fokus er økonomiske og sociale
årsager til oprøret og til krisen i Spanien. Vi kunne tænkte os at høre lidt om det spanske
arbejdsmarked. Vi har læst at det er opdelt - at der er en stor opdeling mellem den regulære, den
irregulære og undergrundssektoren. Er det noget du ved noget om?

Hvad tænker i på når siger undergrundssektor?

K: Jeg tænkte nok det sorte arbejdsmarked. Men især skellet mellem fastansatte og folk på
midlertidige kontrakter.

Det spanske arbejdsmarked har været karakteriseret af, at når først man bliver fastansat, så har det -
indtil den nye arbejdsmarkedsreform, som blev vedtaget for et par måneder siden - været sådan, at
man for hvert år man var ansat optjente en kompensation svarende til 45 daglønninger indtil man
blev fyret. Med en top på - jeg kan ikke lige huske hvor meget. Man kunne nå at opbygge en rimelig
heftig kompensation - uretmæssigt. Der ligger så nogle ting lovgivningsmæssigt i forhold til,
hvornår det er tilladt at fyre folk... Uden at det udløser den store kompensation. De har været
relativt stramme, de regler. Det har været svært for virksomhederne at slippe af med medarbejdere,
som har været i virksomheden i lang tid. Det har i hvert fald været dyrt.
Efter min overbevisning - når det har været på den måde, så handler det i høj grad om, at der ikke er
nogle særligt stærke fagforeninger, som er i stand til at forhandle nogle ordenlige aftaler igennem,
som det er i Danmark. Det er i virkeligheden en ting, som går tilbage til Francoregimet, selvom det
var stærkt højreorienteret og vel nærmest fascistisk. Staten gik ind og beskyttede de ansatte...
relativt meget. Det er et system man har haft med derfra, og samtidig har man ikke haft de stærke
fagforeninger til ligesom at påtage sig den rolle, med at forsvare de ansattes rettigheder.

K: Så der er ligesom en overbeskyttelse af folk med kontrakter?

Det kan man sige, ja. Og det har så den effekt i den anden ende, selvfølgelig, at arbejdsgiverne er
forsigtige med at fastansætte folk, fordi de... Eller sådan har det været, igen, fordi spillereglerne er
ændret fuldstændig med den nye arbejdsmarkedsreform, hvor det er sat ned til 20 dage, den
kompensation, man får. Plus at det er blevet lettere for arbejdsgiverne at godtgøre forskellige
årsager til at fyre folk.

K: De 20 dage, er det pr. år, man har været ansat, eller er det bare i alt?

Det er pr år. Og så er der en top på, et topbeløb. Jeg kan ikke lige huske hvad det er.

K: Noget mere om arbejdsmarkedsreformen... Udover, at den sætter de 45 dage ned til 20 dage,
hvad indebærer den ellers?

Det er det fundamentale i den. Det bliver billigere og lettere. De argumenter, som arbejdsgivern skal
komme med for at kunne afskedige folk... Man bealjvarer den model, hvor der er en berettiget eller
en uberettiget afskedigelse. Det bliver bare billigere at afskedige folk uberettiget, og det bliver
lettere at afskedige folk berettiget. Det er det vigtige i den arbejdsmarkedsreform. Så er der også
nogle idéer omkring at man skal sætte ind og styrke arbejdsformidlingen og sådan nogle ting. I
forbindelse med finansloven for 2012, som blev fremlagt for nylig, har man skåret de midler, der
var sat af til jobskabende virksomhed, ned med en femtedel. Det hænger ikke særligt godt sammen.

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K: Fordi der ikke kommer flere jobs?

Nej, i forhold til, hvis man i arbejdsmarkedsreformen går ind og siger nogle fine ting om, at "det
kan godt være det bliver billigere og lettere at fyre folk, men så vil vi også gøre en større indsats for
at hjælpe folk i arbejde igen." Hvis man så samtidig går ind og hugger til mod en femtedel af de
midler, der er afsat til den slags ting... Så hænger tingene ikke sammen.

K: Ser du andre problemer, eller er der andre kritikpunkter af den her arbejdsmarkedsreform.

Som sagt, det er humlen af det. Hvis i virkelig vil ned i det... Så detaljeret er jeg ikke inde i det, så
må i have fat i nogle eksperter, hvis i skal dybere ind i den.

K: Noget andet vi tænkte på, det er i forhold til arbejdsløshed. Der er jo den her meget høje
ungdomsarbejdsløshed og arbejdsløshed blandt hele befolkningen. Hvilke sektorer er det især,
jobsne er forsvundet fra? Ved du noget om det?

I første omgang er det hele byggesektoren. Jeg mener det var 15% af arbejdsstyrken, som var
beskæftiget i byggesektoren, før krisen kom. Det er i høj grad unge mennesker, som, imens det gik
godt, er droppet ud af skolen, uden at blive færdig, fordi de kunne tjene gode penge på
byggepladserne. Og nu står de, måske, sidst i tyverne, og har ingen uddannelse, og kan ikke andet
end at blande cement.

K: Er det især fast- eller løsansatte, som har mistet deres jobs i forbindelse med krisen?

Jeg kender ikke statistiskerne, men min fornemmelse er, at der også er rigtigt mange fastansatte, der
har mistet deres jobs. Der var jo også før krisen kom en stor del af arbejdsmarkedet, hvor de unge
var ansat på tidsbestemte kontrakter, hvor man blev ansat på den ene tidsbestemte kontrakt efter den
anden, og så kunne man gå i evigheder... I udgangspunktet har det måske været der, det var
vanskeligt, og derfor ungdomsarbejdsløsheden er så kæmpestor. Men der er altså også rigtigt
mange, af de fast jobs, der er røget. I industrien for eksempel, hvor folk i vid udstrækning har været
fastansat. I bilindustrien og i fremstillingsindustrien, der er gradvist blevet justeret ned på
arbejdsstyrken.

K: Noget andet vi interesserer os for, det er den store generalstrejke, der var for et par uger siden.
Hvad går den ud på?

Det er imod arbejdsmarkedsreformen. Det var simpelthen det, den handlede om. Det handlede om
at protestere mod, at det bliver lettere...

K: Hvem stod bag den?

Der er to store fagforeninger. Comisiones Obreros og UGT. UGT er den historiske, socialistiske
fagforening. CO var en der opstod under Francoregiment, som i begyndelsen var kommunistisk
baseret, men som i dag ikke har nogen klar partipolitisk tilknytning, selvom den selvfølgelig hører
til på venstrefløjen.

K: Hvor bred var deltagelsen i generalstrejken?

Det kommer an på hvem man spørger. Haha. Ifølge fagforeningerne selv, var der op mod 80%

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tilsutning. Ifølge regeringen... Fungerede alting som på en almindelig arbejdsdag. Sandheden ligger
formentlig et sted midt i mellem. Det var mærkbart, kan man sige. Jeg var rundt i byen, og der var
tydeligt en lavere aktivitet end hvad der normalt er.

K: Men det er de to største fagforeninger, der stod bag?

Det er de to største, og de eneste, der rigtigt har nogen gennemslagskraft. I det omfang, de så har
det, for de har heller ikke særligt meget. Så findes der en del andre, mindre fagforeninger. Nogle af
dem er regionalt baseret, og der findes nogle anarkistiske fagforeninger også. De er meget små.

A: Den dag der var generalstrejke var der også nogle ret store demonstrationer, blandt andet i
Madrid?

Jo - den var faktisk større i Barcelona.

A: Hvordan er dit indtryk af deltagerne? Var det fagbevægelsen, der marcherede, eller var det også
en bred, folkelig protest?

Det var fagbevægelsen, og det var Los Indignados, som også var med på gaden - er min
fornemmelse. Jeg vil sige det var en protest, der rakte ud over det rent faglige. Det var ikke sådan,
som det nogengange er, at millioner af mennesker går på gaden - fx her i Catalonien når der sker
noget ift. selvstyret, så kan de mobilisere mange flere mennesker. Men det var relativt bredt, var
min fornemmelse. Og så var der nogle enkelte, omkring en demonstration organiseret af
anarkisterne, som røg i slagsmål med politiet, og så opstod der de heftige scener, som blev vist på
alverdens TV-stationer.

A: Det så vi godt.

J: Hvor mange vurderer du var med? Herhjemme hørte vi noget om flere millioner på gaden i
Barcelona.

Nej, ikke i Barcelona. Hvis man lægger det sammen, kan man nok godt nå op på flere millioner i
Spanien. Men det var ikke mere end et par hundrede tusinde - og det var den største her i Barcelona.
Som jeg sagde før: der er andre gange, hvor der har været mange flere mennesker på gaden. 11
marts attentaterne i Madrid - der var millioner af mennesker på gaden i protest mod det.

K: Hvordan er den politiske kultur generelt i Spanien? Er der en kultur for at demonstrere?

Ja, det er der. (...) Symbolikken er vigtig. Det er også typisk at de går ud og laver en generalstrejke
på 1 dag. Det er en gestus, for at vise, at "vi er utilfredse". I stedet for at gå og sige: Vi går ikke i
arbejde igen, før i trækker arbejdsmarkedsreformen tilbage. Det gør man ikke. Nogengange holder
de en halv dags generalstrejke. Men ikke desto mindre, så opfattes det af magthaverne som et
vigtigt signal.

K: Det kan være vi kan snakke lidt mere om de sociale bevægelser, Indignados osv. Hvad er det for
nogle mennesker der er med i de her bevægelser?

Forskellige folk. Dem der stod bag den første aktion i Madrid, som giver navn til bevægelsen -
15M, det var nogle folk fra en organisation som hedder Democracia Ya!, altså demokrati nu. Det er
en relativt intellektuelt baseret bevægelse, som går ind for en mere direkte form for demokrati, hvor

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man via nettet kan organisere en politisk deltagelse, som er meget mere horizontal, kan man sige.
Og i udgangspunktet var kravene meget om det spanske valgsystem, om at gøre det mere åbent, at
lave åbne lister. Et relativt pragmatisk program, i virkeligheden. Siden er der kommet en masse folk
til... Det er svært at sige, at der er nogen hovedledetråd i det. Nogen af dem er sådan nolgle neo-
hippier osv., som mener at vi alle skal flytte ud i bjergene og bo derude, fordi det er håbløst at være
i byen. Når man gik rundt i de første dage især, var der rigtigt mange ældre mænd, som gik rundt
med deres republikanske flag, og i hele den debat der har været, omkring Spaniens forhold til de
forbrydelser, der blev begået under borgerkrigen og efter, har også været en del af 15M.

K: Så det er en relativt bred bevægelse?

Ja, det må man sige. Og så er der enkelte partier, som har forsøgt at blive en del af det. Det har de
ikke haft det store held med, fordi man har været meget opmærksom på, at der ikke skulle gå
partipolitik i det, fra de her folks side. Men et parti, som hedder EQUO et helt nydannet parti, er
måske dem, der kunne være interessante at kigge på. Det blev stiftet af Greenpeace-manden, der
blev sat fast i København ifm. at nogle Greenpeace-aktivister fik sneget sig ind hos Dronningen.

A: Der ved COP15?

Jep. Og så sad de varetægtsfængslet i jeg ved ikke hvor lang tid. Det var en stor historie, hernede.
En af dem, har dannet det her parti som er sådan et rød-grønt parti, EQUO, mener jeg det er. Det er
det nærmeste, man kommer en partipolitisk ting omkring det her.

J: Hvad er deres mærkesager?

Dels er det miljøspørgsmål. Så er det en reform at det spanske valgsystem, så de mindre partier får
lidt lettere ved at komme til.

A: Men er det dit indtryk, at det stadig er reform af valgsystemet, som er det bærende i bevægelsen?

K: Ift. Indignados.

Det er svært at sige. Det er lidt i dvale, i øjeblikket. Der er ingen tvivl om, at det blusser op igen på
et tidspunkt, men det er længe siden der har været nogen klare manifestationer af, hvor det er på vej
hen. Jeg var til et møde med nogle af deres repræsentanter, i det omfang man overhovedet kan tale
om repræsentanter, for det siger de altid, hvis der er nogen der stiller op, at "jeg repræsenterer kun
mig selv, og jeg er ikke valgt til noget som helst". Nogle af os internationale journalister i Barcelona
havde et møde med nogle af dem ifm. valget, som jo var i november. Og der var det min
fornemmelse, at det oprindelige idégrundlag stadig er det, man arbejder videre med. Nogle dele af
bevægelsen var i gang med at udarbejde nogle forslag til, hvordan man kunne organisere sig politisk
på en mere direkte, demokratisk måde. Men det er altså ikke noget, man hører særligt meget om i
den store offentlighed - hvordan det egentligt går med det arbejde. Under alle omstændigheder kan
man sige, at selvom det var relativt få der lavede ballede her ifm. generalstrejken, så kan man sige,
at faren er, at fordi de her mennesker i vid udstrækning er blevet ignoreret af det etablerede politiske
system, så er risikoen for at de bliver radikaliserede til stede.

J: Hvor meget fylder alt det her med ungdomsarbejdsløshed og den økonomiske krise, i 15M
bevægelsen?

Det fylder selvfølgelig meget. Men så kommer man ud i noget mere traditionelt anti-globaliserings-

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teori. Det er der også en masse af. Det er bare ikke hvad jeg synes er interessant ved det. Det er ikke
det, der adskiller dem fra bevægelser af den her type, der har været før. Det som adskiller dem er, at
kommer med nogle bud på, hvordan man kunne organisere sig på en anden måde politisk. Så er der
et andet aspekt ved det som også er interessant. De har koblet an til nogle boligaktivistbevægelser
her i Barcelona, som også har eksisteret før 15M opstod. Som nu har organiseret sig i en platform,
hvor de tar ud og laver blokader når folk skal sættes ud af deres hjem, når folk ikke kan betale af på
kreditforeningslånet. Så møder de op, hvis ellers dem der skal sættes ud er interesseret i det, så
møder de op og blokerer for fogeden og for politiet. Det er her, der har været mest direkte resultat.

[KLIP]

Det er stadig sådan på det spanske boligmarked, at hvis man køber fast ejendom, og man ikke
længere kan betale sin gæld, så er det ikke nok at overdrage boligen til banken. Så tar banken og
fraregner den nuværende markedsværdi af boligen, og så hænger man stadig på resten af
gældsbeløbet, som man skylder. Der foreslog folkene fra bevægelsen... Det kan jeg sende på en
mail, hvis i er interesserede. De foreslog at det skal være sådan, at man kan slippe ud af sin gæld
udelukkende ved at overdrage nøglen til banken. Det var der flere partier der tog op, og skrev ind i
deres partiprogram op til parlamentsvalget. Man arbejder nu på nogle modeller for hvordan det
bliver lettere for boligejere at slippe ud af det. Både at miste sit hus og samtidig gå rundt med en
kæmpe gæld resten af livet...
Det er det mest direkte.

K: Udover det, hvad er Indignados hovedgrund til at gøre oprør?

Tja... Hovedgrunden til, at bevægelsen på et tidspunkt blev så stor og fik så meget opmærksomhed,
er selvfølgelig krisen, fordi en hel masse mennesker lige pludselig elhar svært ved at se en fremtid.
Og så begynder man at se sig om efter alternative måder. Dels er der en ren trods-protest-ting i det.
Og så, som vi snakkede om i begyndelsen, så er der nogle andre idéer om hvordan man kunne
organisere sig, på en måde der opfattes som mere retfærdig. Mindre elitær. Og så hører det med til
historien, at den politiske klasse i Spanien... Når man laver meningsmålinger om hvad folk opfatter
som landets største problem, så siger de først arbejdsløshed, derefter den økonomiske situation og
nummer 3 kommer så den politiske klasse, fordi den opfattes som korrumperet. Og de politiske
partier opfattes som nogle organisationer, der mere handler om at operere som en slags legale
mafiaer, hvor det handler om at sikre organisationens interesserer snarere end almenvellet.

K: Du sagde at de er i dvale nu, men spiller det stadig en rolle på en måde? Er der noget aktivitet?

A: Eller er der på vej til at komme det?

Jeg har ikke set noget. Jeg har heller ikke opsøgt det i noget tid. Det er muligt at de har gang i nogle
ting. Ifm. med generalstrejken var de ude at være med der, men det var ikke dem, der var
toneangivende, det var fagforeningen. Der var en af de folk, jeg snakkede med i november, som
sagde, at når vejret bliver godt igen så begynder der at ske nogle ting. Så skal det jo snart til at
komme. Jeg tror også der er en vis rådvildhed omkring det. De havde noget momentum på et
tidspunkt, og de ting, der er sket - lige bortset fra det jeg nævnte før med boligområdet - alt andet er
gået den forkerte vejr, i forhold til hvad de foreslår. Der er kommet en konservativ regering som har
strammet op økonomisk, som er i gang med at rulle nogle demokratiske rettigehder tilbage omkring
forsamlingsfrihed og sådan nogle ting. - Som vil gøre det vanskeligere for dem at operere.

A: Har du hørt om noget omkring 1. maj?

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Der har fagforeningerne sagt, at hvis ikke regeringen forhandler om arbejdsmarkedsreformen og i
det hele taget går ind i en dialog omkring, hvordan man skal forholde sig til de initiativer, som
krisen fremkalder, så kommer der en stor protest 1. maj. Det er det ultimatum, kan man sige, som
kom ud af generalstrejken for nogle uger siden.

K: Du har ikke hørt om andre aktionsdage?

Nej, ikke umiddelbart.

J: Du nævner nogle tilbagerulninger af demokratiske rettigheder. Kan du sige lidt mere om, hvilke
rettigheder?

Det er helt nyt. Det forslag er simpelthen blevet fremlagt i dagens aviser. Forslaget hæver straffen
for at ryge i klammeri med politiet, for ikke at respektere ordensmagten, og gør det strafbart, at
være med til at organisere demonstrationer, som har til formål at forstyrre den offentlige orden -
hvordan man så end har tænkt sig at definere det.

K: Er det regeringen, der har fremsat det lovforslag?

Ja.

A: Så det minder lidt om vores lømmelpakke herhjemme?

Ja, det er det. Det har fået ekstra medvind efter den ballade der var i Barcelona. Og så skete der
også nogle ting i Valencia for nogle måneder siden. Det ved jeg ikke om i var opmærksomme på.
Der var nogle gymnasieelever som demonstrerede dernede mod nedskæringer. På et tidspunkt gik
politiet ind og greb rimeligt hårdhændet fat i de folk, og så var der balade i Valencia i en tre-fire
dage, som var ved at blive rimeligt omfattende og alvorlige. Det var min fornemmelse, at politiet på
en måde ville statuere et eksempel - ville vise, at nu gælder der nogle nye spilleregler. De
konservative, som ikke var i regering da Los Indignados-tingen den kørte, de mente at man skulle
have slået ned på det meget før og man skulle have ryddet Puerta del Sol i Madrid med det samme,
osv. Rykket det op med rode, osv. Valencia-urolighederne var helt klart et signal fra regeringen, som
jeg opfattede det. Det kan godt være at folk protesterer osv., men der bliver slået ned på det og der
bliver slået hårdt. Og det er så den politiske opfølgning af det, som kommer nu.

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Bilag B: Interview med Jaime Pastor, 24.04.2012, på UNED, Madrid
J: This afternoon I'm in a course about the crisis and there will be some students who are active in
the movement. Maybe I could sent to you... at half past 4. Can you?

K: Where is it? Is it here?

J: No it's in the city. I will give you the address.

K: Year. That sounds great. But how long time do you have now for the interview?

J: No. We can have half an hour- an hour. That depends on you.

K: That's cool.

J: I have to stay here because I have some calls and..
Ok. For you. There is an article of me. I don't know if I've send you that , no?

K: No I don't think so.

J: And the paper of the movement in Madrid.

K: They have their own paper? Oh that's cool.

J: Not of all Assemblies. But you will find here...wait... You can find here the assemblies who are
supporting the movement. This is not an official paper, but the newspaper of some of the assemblies
in the movement. Ok.

A: We would like to ask you some questions about the movement. First of all we are a bit confused
about, there are different names for the movement. Sometimes it's 15M, sometimes “Democracia
Real Ya”, sometimes Indignados. Is it the same group or different?

J: No. The movement is called 15th. may – 15M. Movimiento 15M. This is the name. “Democracia
Real Ya” is the network who convoked demonstrations on the 15. of may. But this is a network... for
example this weekend they had.. a part of this movement had a meeting in.. there is a split (?) in this
network. I explain a little (about) that, no? The origin of the 15th. of may is Democracia Real Ya
who convoked the demonstration. But after there is the acampada, no? The acampada en Sol. That
is when the movement is developing no. In the next days, in the next months no. And Democracia
Real Ya is only a network present inside this movement. The same case for fx Juventud cin futuro.
The youth without future. This is another networked who appeared for the 15th. of may. Who
canvoked demonstrations on the 7th. Of april. It is another network inside the group no. But the
movement is the assemblies in Sol and in the different districts in villages, in Madrid and in other
cities of Spain. There is also the plataformo de los affectados por las hypotecas (?). Another
network with good relations with the 15th movement. But it is not the same.

A: And Los indignados?

J: Los indignados is the journalistic name. Because … (Uforståeligt). Yes sometimes the movement
accepts it, to be called Indignados. But it's not exactly I the think the.. the more accepted name is
the 15th. Of may – 15M.

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A: you said that democracia real ya was the network that made the first demonstration. Can you tell
us some more about how the movement came about?

J: The movement is born in the social networks. Internet, facebook, twitter. With a small number of
people who prepared the demonstration with slogan: No somos mercancia de politicos y banqeros.
This is the slogan. With this slogan they where preparing the demonstration of the 15th of may and
then in a little period of time they had a big ecco in network no, in social networks. But that was a
surprise They didn't wait thousands of people in the streets. This was more than they where waiting.
There is also another network.. I think.. There is another network. Another one is “El estado del
malestar”. That is another network. Another network is “No Les votes”. “No les votes” is new
network after the mobilization against the law called “Sinde” (?!). This is a law against... for
internet.. in defends of the rights of the musical industry, the rights of the authors of books an all
that. There was a big mobilization against this law. And after this mobilization the people who
where developing this initiative created the “No les votes”. Then we can say that the demonstration
of the 15M is the (?) (Sammenslutning/Mødested) of these different networks with many people.
But the new event was the acampada. The acampada after the demonstration of the 15M. When a
little number of students, of young people decided to stay in Sol against the arrestation (?) of some
friends of them on this day. Then witk the acampada we know a new event. (ca. 11.34) The next
days there was this conflict between the acampada and the police and as you know I suppose in the
context of the electoral campaign. And in this context they are defending the occupation of Sol in
disobedience to the government with journey (?) of the 20th of may, you know the reflection-day.
When the Sol is occupied by many people, thousands of people against the prohibition of the
government. But the government is obliged to permit this demonstration. So this is the week of the
birth of a new political and social actor. Like the title of my article “A new social and political actor
against the dictatorship of the market”. After we find the distinction of the movement in different
districts of Madrid and Barcelona, also Valencia.. different cities. And also you can find a new
important date, the 19th of June with demonstration against the pact of the euro. And finally the 15th
of October when you find the global day, united... unidos... unided global. I don't remember the
slogan.

A: But in the first week the repression from the police also had an effect?

J: But this is an effect against the police against the government, because they try to expose (eller
expulse) to spear (eller spell) the acampada. They couldn't because there was rapid a very quick
contestation of this decision of the police. That's why the government is obliged to tolerate that
movement. And this is another... pascifically. Because this is a movement defending nonviolent
action and that was very very new for us. Because in the past there was also acampadas in other
places of Madrid, but not in Sol. The symbol is very important. For example with Tahir, the Tahir
square that got captured by the youth students..(?) You can find it in internet, there are... you have
seen many documents in internet or not?

A: Yes some.

J: Because there are for example there are documents with people occupying Sol square, the 15th of
may, the 16th. You can find a lot of material in internet. Different webs, there are lots of interviews. I
don't know if I have send you a blog?

K: yeah exactly.

                                                                                              Side 2 af 9

J: There is another... Give me this one. No no the other copy. I gave you this copy. I will find
another one. … You can find here. This blog is very interesting. 15M.cc. You can find good
interviews here fx. I forgot... because in the beginning of the movement the people who are
camping in Sol are generally new.. they are not many. There could be 15 people no. No 50 people.
But after in the next days there are many people of cause.. there are many people coming from the
occupied social centers. Because there are some social centers in Madrid. Then you can find some
interviews. Some interviews here: conversaciónes. See. With different people. For example.... This
one is interesting, Ian xxx, because he is representing people of an occupied social center. But there
you can find a lot of material. Ok?

K: Thank you.

J: More questions?

K: We where wondering these movements, who are part of them? Which people are part of the
15M?

J: Which people are art of the 15M? No generally..

K: Young, old..?

J: Young. I explain a little here because in the beginning of the movement people are between 23-30
years old. Generally people who have finished a grade, master and who are without jobs. And then
without jobs, they are not politically organized generally. Then we can see young people with a
cultural capital, more or less high cultural capital, but without future. In the beginning they are the
protagonists of this movement. After that there are generally people coming from the low-middle-
class. People working in education, in health... People more older no. Between 40 and 50 years. But
after there are many different people. But we can say, for example one year after the movement is
not so massive as before. But we could say that there are, for example in Madrid there where more
than one hundred assemblies and now there are active 55. In Madrid only. But that's important
because in these assemblies we could say there are 40-60 people who are the networks organizing
this assemblies no. And you can find people about 25-35 years old and people more than 50 years
old. This kind of people. And now of cause there are people organizing in united left, in alternative
left and different ecologist, feminists.. There are.. In the beginning they where not very present,
because the movement appeared very autonomous and with an anti-parties feeling. Very important.
Anti-party, anti-trade-union. Now yes they continue to be very critical against the big parties, the
big trade unions, but they are making coalitions with social networks. For example in Madrid you
can find here if you look in this paper you can find here the initiative against the privatization of the
water. Because the government of the government of the autonomous community of Madrid is
planning the privatization of the canal.. the public into price of the water. And then the 15M
organize with this platform “contra privatization”, with different unions, social organizations,
ATTAC for example, and social controlled in referendum. In alternative referendum. And you will
see around 175 people participating in this initiative. The same with the platform offending the
people “affectados por las hypotecas” or the mortgage. Then we can find now that 15M is a
movement citicenship-movement. Occupying the public squares etc. etc. But we call effecto
contaje, influence in different social movements, in different political and social organizations and
creating this kind of coalition with them.

A: Ok. You say that almost anybody can be part of the movement, are there some people who are
not part of the movement, you can say some groups that are not in the movement?

                                                                                              Side 3 af 9

J: The parties as parties are not present, because the movement does not accept political
organization, or the people must be individually. As individuals. But also the movement has it's
enemies, the popular party, the majority of the media, who are against the movement.

K: the majority of what?

J: Of the media, of communication. The mass media. The church. catholic church. You say the
church because there is only one institutionally. And of cause the 15M has been criminalized
because.. In Barcelona there was some violent conflict with the police. In the public surveys there
where a majority of the public opinion sympathizing with the movement, not against the movement.
But after one year this sympathy is less important is smaller. But they continue to have big
sympathy because they criticize the corruption, the electoral system, the dictatorship of the market,
the troika, the international monetary fond, the European union, and the European central bank.
They continue to have sympathy in the public, but less than before, because they appear now to be
more politicized, with alliance with other networks.

A: Why do you think the movement has succeeded to extend so many people? How come so many
people are part of it?

J: How? Success?

A: year why is it such a big success?

J: The big success was because... we can say that the 15M has had a big symbolic success.
Symbolic, emotional, symbolic success. In the sense of they have expressed the indignation of a
majority of the people against the politics of Zapatero and his politics against the crisis. I don't have
my.. There are.. This is important with the discourse, the slogans of the movement. Because in the
first weeks of the movement there was an explosion of imagination and creativity with different
slogans. I explain here some slogans. But I have a work a poem (?!) of a young colleague analyzing
different slogans. Then with this annunciation of the banks, the people corrupted, the politicians all
that they have the sympathy of the population. But they have had a success also in the making some
subjects in the political agenta. For example the problem of the right to a house, the water, against
the privatization and all that. But it's true that they haven't had success with concrete political aims,
for example the movement criticizes the electoral system saying this electoral system is not
proportional... and the system continues to be the same. Then the problem of the house, the
mortgage and all that, we could say that the movement has had pasiant (?) success. Because the
movement has stopped many... I don't know how is it called in English.. The expulsion of people.
Many.. you can find.. I give you the blog of the platform of hipotecas, you can see they have
stopped a lot. But the big success is to continue to exist after one year. This is the big succes. For
people as old as me this is important because this is a new kind of social movement. In the past of
cause we have seen different kinds of movements from the starting of Francoism until now, but this
is new because this movement is territorially based in the public squares, a new kind of citizen
movement, with an internal democracy stronger than before, than the other social movements.
Because they work with the assemblies, with different working groups: feminism, politics,
economy, different cooperatives, respect for example the commission of respect in the assemblies
guarantying equal rights for everybody, not accepting representatives or leaders of the movement,
defending the rotation between the people who are, portavozes, the speakers of the movement,
practicizing rotation. You will be here until when?

                                                                                              Side 4 af 9

A: The 4th of may.

J: Ah, that's long. Then you can see some meetings. You can go.. because the assemblies of the
districts are generally on Saturday. For example in my district we have assembly on Saturday at 12.
First there is a more thematic assembly. At 13 (1 o clock) that is the beginning of the assembly. Also
there are different meetings in the working groups in these days, because you know the movement
now is preparing the demonstrations of 12th of may. There are many initiatives. Too many
initiatives. This is one problem of the movement. Because the movement after the 15th of October
there was a relative crisis because there was the electoral campaign, the election and all that, the
movement was less visible, less public. After there is many many demonstrations, and now the
debate is how to be more selective, how to select the initiatives, not to be to activism, because the
massivity of the demonstration is smaller. Yes you can see some assemblies. You can see meetings
and demonstrations. The problem is you only stay here until 4th of may.. you can see.. meetings and
demonstrations but.. On this Sunday there is a demonstration, but convoked by the trade unions
comisiones obreras and UGT, convoking this Sunday a demonstration defending the public
education, the public health against the so called reforms of the government. But you can see at
least some assemblies, some meetings.

A: you talked about that in the beginning it was mostly young people with good education and a lot
of cultural capital but no job. can you say they are still the main-actors in the movement?

J: The main.. it's difficult now. they are one of the main, but now there are also older people, but i
think there are.. because the problem is that after the high period of the movement untill the end of
july. Untill the end of july you could say they where main-activists of the movement, but now it is
more heterogenious. They are here but there are also older people, professional people.

A: ok. so it's difficult to say what social groups are most important.

j: Quantitatively they could be more important, but it's difficult because we are.. the movement is
not (uforståeligt), but i don't know, because one of the interevations (?) is.. the question is the next
demonstration.. who can say if they become again protagonists or they are a little demobilized. that
depends. but at the same time we could see that the student movement maybe could be more
important now, people less than 23 years old. Maybe they could be more protagonist. But there are
also older than 50 years old that are now activists, because in the different districts these people are
more active. In Sol there where these people older than 50, but in the districts the different small
cities there are these older people also.

A: Ok. we would like to ask you some more questions about the background of the revolt. Speaking
more generally, why do the young people revolt?

J: The young people?

A: year what is the background?

J: The background?

A: year what is the background for the young people?

K: Also for the old people. all the people.

                                                                                             Side 5 af 9

J: the background politically or in which sense?

A: basicly speaking, both politically and socially. Why do they doe this?

J: No the problem is we must distinguish because in the beginning there where new people, not
politisized. then they had a cultural background. They are people who are very critical against the
parties, the trade unions etc. But only wanting to create a new democratic movement. Maybe the
participative democracy could be the big consensus of this movement against the corrupted
democracy or the corrupted political class. the antagonists no? That's why in the beginning one of
the big critics of the movement was these professional politicians. This was an identity of the
movement. Another one was the relation of this corrupted political class with the speculative
capital. And symbolized in big representatives of the banks. But that with the slogans could be... I
think I don't have here this rapport (?) of my colleague, but with the slogan you can find… The
more important slogan was “Lo llaman democracia pero no lo es”, “ No nos representan” or the one
that is very gastizo “No hay pan para tanto chorizo”. There is no bread for so many chorizo.
Chorizo es people, the thieves. They where the popular slogans in the first weeks: “Lo llaman
democracia pero no lo es”, “No nos representan”, “No hay pan para tonto chorizo”, “No es una
crisis, es un estafa”.
K: Una que?
J: Estafa. I don’t remember the word.¨
A: It’s a robbery.
J: Robbery yes robbery. I wrote a long article, longer than this one, explaining more slogans. But
this is not the… The people are very ill informed, because in… I suppose in your country the
people.. a critical aim of the movement was the media, the TV in Spain generally. That’s why we
could say these people are very informed. Then they have cultural informational know how
important, that’s why for example one of the more active groups in the movement is the economy-
group. The economy commission. They wrote many documents criticizing the pact of the Euro,
criticizing or explaining the problem of the inmobilidad imbul (?) in Spain. Then there are a lot of
information or documents in the social network of this month. That’s whya fx we are preparing a
social forum after the 12th of May called “Dismontanto mintiras” you know liars. Denouncing the
lies. That’s why one of the more important role of this movement has been to offer critics alternativs
to the political class. Then but with new people. We could say that these new people and the youth
overall didn’t know the social alternative movements before this movement. In the beginning the
young people didn’t have trust in the political organizations of the alternative left fx, or the
alternative cultural groups. And in the beginning.. after we could say that they have changed. Now
you could see the confluence of these people, but the important thing is that these people wherent
known by the political organization. They want to create a new movement different of the past
social movements.

A: why did this change happen+
J: because the people of the alternative organization or the occupied social centers of the alternative
left are in the movement, in general respect the autonomy of this movement. There are people not
respecting this movement. There have been also conflicts. The problem of instrumentalization of
some groups. But in general the people of the alternative left and the alternative social movements
are respecting the autonomy of the movement, the pracsis of decision of the movement. And now
another example of this initiative against the privatization of the water. There they have seen a good
campaign without problems. People of ATTAC fx or the more important ecologist organization
“ecologistas in accion”. Then fx feminist, the feminist assembly is an old network of feminist
women. They are in the commission of feminists of the movement. Then we can say that we have
seen a practice of hybridity, mixture of different cultures, different views, different organizations,

                                                                                            Side 6 af 9

but not participating as organizations, but as persons.

A: so the people before did not trust organizations, they have now some experience with
organizations, so now there is trust?
J: Now yes. But not generally. There have been also conflicts with some people because in the
beginning until now more or less the movement began accepting.. I don’t remember this in
English… bancartas… signs of parties, of organizations. They didn’t accept. Resently at
demonstrations they accept of social organizations, but not of parties. Then people.. the membership
of the parties and trade unions in the first period many didn’t accept to participate because they
couldn’t appear as members of parties or trade unions. But later they accepted. They where building
the movement. In this context they changed. The relationship with the people the protagonist people
of the movement.
A: so the 15M and the social organizations they have both moved closer to each other.
K: So you say that young people or the people in the movement are dissatisfied with the election
system and with the corruption, but what about the unemployment? We heard that Spain has the
highest unemployment in the European union. How does that effect the movement?
J: No the effect is not positive (?). the unemployment continues to be high, We are near.. maybe in
the next month we will arrive to 6 mill. Unemployed in Spain, 25 %n of the population. The
problem… the movement they are against the laboural reform. Yes they defend the reportition (?) of
jobs, the reduction of the time of work to 35 hours a week, but they don’t have such a (uforståeligt).
Then the only thing is that in many districts, no in some districts they are creating coorperatives…
(Telefon ringer, han snakker)… This is another debate: how to recist the crisis, how not to wait to
change the world, and how to create alternative economy, a social alternative economy. And there
are some debates fx in my district there is popular artineo (?). Arteneo is a Spanish name, some
social center with discussions about alternatives to capitalism etc. And they are creating the fx
workers populares. Workers populares is to create some, to create the.. in Spanish hierbas.. I don’t
remember.
K. jeg tror det er trepartsforhandlinger. It’s like agreements between the government and the trade
unions and the…
J: No no trade unions no. (han slår ordet op)
K: kitchengardens. Jardines?
J: urban kitchengardens.
K: Small gardens where you can make…
J: yes potatoes, different things. There is a network of that. There is another.. with that there are
coorperatives of consummation, of different products of that. I don’t know if you know “Bancos del
tiempo”, time banks. I don’t know if you know in Denmark? Bancos del tiempo. It’s to exchange
works. If you can teach English and other people can give you potatoes. Exchange of activities, of
different abilities of people. This kind of things. There are all that.. there is a radio also, but that
doesn’t create many jobs of cause, but there are some only in social alternative sector, for any
alternative economy out of the marked. In Barcelona this kind of sector is more important.

Ju: but I think what you asked about was also how big a role the economic crisis and the
unemployment plays in this movement. Is it a big motivation or is the main motivation all this about
the electoral system?

J: no they are related no. That's why the slogan: “No somos mercancias de politicos y banqueros”
continues to be the slogan. Of cause the economic crisis continues to be the stronger motivation of
cause for the youth because they know they don't have future and they have a precarity (?) as the
only future. But the problem is that they don't have alternatives. Tht's why this kind of self-
organization with different networks organizing some alternative markets etc. are the only way for

                                                                                             Side 7 af 9

them. Because the only other way for them is to migrate to another country. I explain one of the
slogans of the youth was... “Hay dres salidas” there are three exits for the graduates: the earth, the
air and the sea. “Por tierra, mar y aire”. There are not many, but there are maybe it could be 10% of
young graduated people who are migrating to germany, to england, to Argentina sometimes. No
overall Germany. The problem is that they don't have any future in the next years. Then we can see
this movement as the space where they can fight, they can organize some networks of activities, fx
in the new technologies. There are many small cutural groups, but they dont have any alternatives. I
have a son, 29 years old. He has studied law (uforståeligt) and he's now working in a butique..
commercial for marijuana. Marijuana is legal here for the self-consumation. And then we can see
this is people preparing oppositions to fx historians, filosofers, professional whel bachelors, I don't
know how you call it in your country? But the problem is there are less and less offers for these
jobs. Then that's why they have to accept any job with many hours of work and with a salary with
less than one thousand euros pr. month. They are called “nimi” - ni mileuristas. Because before the
crisis the young people with jobs where called mileuristas. 1000 was the salary. Now the jobs for
them are ni-mil-euristas, less than 1000 euros. Fx has 700 euros pr. month but at least 35 hours a
week. It's not the worst of the jobs, but we can find that. There are many people who are working
for weeks, for months, but without contract. That's why in Spain the informal economy is
developing to much now. The informal economy, illegal, without social security. Before the crisis
the informal economy was around 20% and now it's crazy.

A: But would you say thes many people who have come into the 15M, they have done so because of
the economic crisis? They would not have done it maybe 5-10 years ago, before the crisis?

J: sorry?

A: Many people has come into Los indignados. Would you say the course, the reason is the crisis? It
would not have happened 5 years – ten years ago? Even if the demand is for democracy?

J: The big factor, the big motivation is the crisis. But in sociology we use the... relative
privatization.. Do you know?

K: Relative deprevation?

J: relative privation... For simplyfying we could say that..

A: This? (viser vores bog om relative deprevation)

J: Yes exactly! This is the feeling of relative deprevation comparing them with the rich, older
generation. This is economy, but not only economy. Because they compare the economic crisis with
cultural capital and this older generation with less cultural capital than them are well placed in
society. And this with the political class are many preveledges, and corrupted and linked to the
banks. Then this feeling of relative deprevation is a mixtur of economy and politically culture. Then
we cannot say this is only economic course. Fx the mobilization against the law trying to prohibid
the free access to music, books and all that. There where a present of the 15M. That's why these
young people benefitting of socialization of culture and reacting with the project of privatization of
these goods. Then it's true that we cannot understand this movement without the crisis of may 2010
when zapatero whent to Brazil and had a meeting with Sacozy, Merchel, the ministers of economy,
and he came back here and he turned to a neoliberal politic. That's, this is... this could be seen as
the frustration for these young people. Maybe these young people didn't vote Zapatero, but they
thought zapatero was mantaining some kind of minimum of welfare state, But after that they see

                                                                                               Side 8 af 9

that he's preparing the dismantaining (?) of the poor welfare state, because Spain is not a big
welfare state. We could say the began feeling the crisis, for many young people and that's why they
see that they are going to be the major victims of this new political and economic crisis. But they
relate that with democracy, because they see that the parliament has not any capacity of decision.
Then they see the politicians are requested (?) by the marked and they have deprevation. I don't
know if you.. if I answered your question?
Well we have now 5 minutes, but I come back to Madrid then we can go together. (uforståeligt) it
would be better to finish now? Or you have more questions?

A: We only have small questions about the future. What you think will happen with the movement?

Ju: jeg havde lig et andet et. Det er bare I forhold til EU. Kunne det ikke være meget godt at få det
med?

K: Nå jo, det er måske meget godt.

A: jo det kan vi godt.

Ju: Ok. Another question. Just that we've been researched a bit about the European Union as well
and it has a big part in how the government is tackling the crisis. So we where wondering how
much the European Union is a part of this movement, or how much is the movement aware of the
European Union?

J: No for me and for many people... After the 15M there was the mobilization of the 19. of June
against the pact of the Euro, against the new pact of stability. And we could see before the 19th of
October documents of the group of economy of the 15M explaining what was the pact of the Euro
and criticizing the EU. That was very easily accepted by the movement. Then we could say that the
movement is very critical against the EU, without alternative. But even more that the European
Union, e´with the Euro-zone, with the Euro as an instrument of discipline of the different members
of the Euro-land. But the problem is that the movement has not arrived to coordinate this struggle
with other movements in Europe. Then in future I don't know how it could develop because there is
solidarity with Greece, but fx with Portugal there is not a link. They are very critical against the EU,
but there is no conscience of the European scale of the struggle. Maybe fx preparing the new
mobilization there is no big coordination, but there will be some initiatives fx the 19th of may I think
there is an initiative in Frankfurt against the European central bank. There is another initiative
against the (uforståeligt) in the middle of May I think, but with France there is no link. Then it's
clear that they are more critical against the European union, that's not translated in a conscienceness
of the struggle in a European level. More or less.
Well I will see my emails and we can comeback to Madrid.

                                                                                             Side 9 af 9

Bilag C: Interviewguide
Baggrundsviden:
              Hvad hedder du?
              Hvor gammel er du?
              Hvor og hvordan bor du?
              Hvad laver du?

Individuel livssituation:
              Hvordan har du det med din nuværende livssituation?
              Hvordan havde du det med din livssituation for 5 år siden?
              Hvordan er din situation i dag sammenlignet med din situation for 5 år siden?
              Hvordan er dine forventninger til fremtiden og hvordan er dine følelser omkring
disse?

15M:
              Hvorfor er du med i 15M?
              Hvilke aktiviteter har du været med i?
              Har du tidligere været politisk aktiv?
              Kender du mange som er med i bevægelsen?

Gruppen:
              Hvilken slags mennesker er med i 15M?
              Hvad har folk i 15M til fælles?
              Hvem er 15M i opposition til?
              Har du altid følt dig i opposition til disse?
              Hvordan har du det med de folk du er i opposition til?

Evt. Spørgsmål:
              Hvordan har ændringerne i din livssituation og dine forventninger til fremtiden
påvirket dit engagement i 15M?

Bilag D: Interview med Alberto, 26.04.2012, på vores hostel, Madrid

Primero si quires contar sobre que su nombre, edad, y informationes basicos?

Vale yo soy soy Alberto. Tengo 30 anos. LLevo un par de anos en paro y estoy terminando el segundo siglo
de antropologia y preparando (uforst, måske thesis) de antroprologia. Soy licencia de sciencias politicas y no
se que mas que decir.

done vives?

Vivo en Mostoles, que es un pueblo, un puoblo en un pequeno ciudad que esta unos 15 km, media hora del
centro de madrid.

Vives solo o con alguin?

Vivo con mis padres todavia

pero ahora estas haciendo un thesis?

Si estoy empezando a la thesis. estoy preperando los estudias mios (?) para la thesis.

Pero antes estabas en paro?

Sigo estando en paro(arbejdsløshed), y antes trabajaba, en destino trabajo (?) y tenia comparte (uforst.)
trabajo y estudio.

Estudias ahora porque llevabas unos anos en paro y para ...?

No, estudiara por que (uforst.) terminando los estudios superiores. esos estudos se (uforst.), estuve
estudiando y (oforst.)

Queremos un poco sobre la relation de 15M. Cuales actividades has participado en?

Actividades de 15M. Pues es complicado, es muy extencio. Antes de 15M participado en movimientos
sociales. en un centro social y pertenege un collectivo de contrainformation, no se si sabes lo que es
contrainformation? Information alternativa. pues participada en un collectivo. Entonces la manifestation de
15M estaba como fotografo. Y estaba en el manifestantionde 15M tomando fotos. Pasa por el 15M surge lo
de la acampada, que empezaron con gruppe de 40-30 personas lluego fueron 200 (uforst.). Y bueno estuve
particapando en la acampada y en la commision, se creó una comission de analisis social, sobre lo que estaba
pasando en Sol en este momento. No era un grupo de gente que hacia que era sociologios, antropoligos,
gente de sitias sociales que estanban (uforst.) pues analisando porque los contestos previos a (uforst.) sobre
eso y en un momento, montaran(?) la acampada, es decir desolverse, irse a los barrios y pueblos de Madrid.
Entoces yo abondando la acampada y me voy a mi pueblo, que esta aqui al lado. Y a partir de eso fue una
asamblea. Un asamblea participo y bueno la participation es asambleas semaneles, commisiones semanales,
y..

semanales significa cada semana?

Si, cada semana. Y luego hay grupos de trabajo internos, que tambiense reunionen una vez de la semana,
reuniones los sabados, que es la asamblea y los lunes nos juntanmos en commisiones de grupo de trabajo.
Hemos realizado manifestationes en el pueblo que hacia varios anos (uforst.), manifestationes casi una o dos
mensuales, y bueno se ha creado un grupo de personas que esta tomando el tema de la viviendo, el tema de
deshacios y estamos llendo apoyar la gente que va a ser desahuciada.

Tu eres en el grupo de vivienda?

Si, de viviendo. Bueno es de libertad asi derecho (uforst) porque estamos varios temas. estan el tema de
migrationes, el tema de genero, el tema de viviendo. Y el mas activa es de viviendo. tema de igualdad de
genero. Y eso, la viviendo es el tema mas activa porque cada semana hay dos o tres deshacios. Como grupo
de apoyo. Y bueno eso es como participo en, a la vez siguo participando en el collectivo contrainformation,
un grupo de information militante. esta juntando en lo que ha pasado (?).

Cuando tiempo usas cada semana o mas o menos?

Pues ... en lo que es el 15M? en hora?

Si

Uh. Pues no te sabria decir (det skal jeg ikke kunne sige). Ni mismo son tres horas de asamblea. mas dos
horas de reuninones de semanas, son 5 horas. Solo en reuniones. luego pues de la agenda de cada semana, no
te sabria decir, pero si que entre manifestationes genrelmente depende un poco de la gente a la semena, hay
semanas que son mas tranquilas, semanas que son mas acceleradas, semanas donde montamos charlas
(forhandlinger), semanas donde descansamos un pocito, pero te sabria decir.

pero mas de 5 horas?

Seguro, sabe de 5 horas semanales si, por genero lo se, porque es un trajo trontino (?), tienes que hacer
carteles como que tiene que salir a repartir folleto (brochurer), entonces nunca es para pensar las horas que le
hecho a esto. pero si son.

Conoces a mucha gente, mucha de sus amigos son el movimiento?

Muchas amigos que pertenicaban en movimientos sociales y que estan dentro de 15M, pero tambien he
conocido a mucha gente en... que es todo en Mostoles 8den by han bor i). O sabe aqui en Madrid mas o
menos concia gente, pero en Mostoles hay un grupo de 100 personas generialista de mi vida en estuve
trabajando ahora todo (uforst.). Mostoles es un pueblo con 230000 habitantes. una suburbia de Madrid.

Queremos saber un poco sobre el grupe de 15m. puedes describir el grupo? (8.40)

El 15M?

Si el movimiento como grupo - quienes son, que tipo de personas estan parte del grupo?

Yo (?), que el 15M como tal no existe. Existo porque tuvo su manifestation en el mes de acampada de
Madrid aqui al lado en Puerta del Sol. Pero yo lo creo que es una respuesta se produxe de manera spontania a
una situation politica y economica muy concreta. No, es el un grupo que convoka las manifestationes, es un
peqeno grupo no, para protestar pero de rependte todo el greso (kongressen?) (?) de gente de 15M los supera
(overgår) no, y se crea algo que ellos no sabemos describir porque, sabe gente de todas las ciudades, gente de